How to install French doors and frame?

[Bells67]

Hi all,

Just need a bit of advice on a reno we have found a bit challenging. We had two large bay windows that we removed with a view to replacing with 2 sets of old but fully renovated french doors. These doors will lead from inside the house to the undercover deck, so we want to install screens as well.  Both spaces are basically, but not quite, the same in size. The house is besser block construction, no gyprock or lining on inner walls at all. After hours and hours of sanding, oiling then varnishing (intergrain) there is no way I am painting the french doors, so it's unlikely that I can get the frame to match, no matter what material I use.

Technical stuff : there is a rebate that seems to have been built into the top and sides of each opening.

• Outside, the distance from the top brick to the bottom brick is approx 2220m   
• Inside the distance from the top brick to the bottom brick is approx 2200m. 
• There is a similar measurement varition from side to side (inside measurement being slightly less than the outside one). 
• Just to do my head in, the top rebate is approx. 105mm in from the outside brick, where the side rebates are only approx 90mm in from the same outside edge. ie. the rebates are not aligned all the way around the opening. 
• One set of french doors is 2025mm high (the other set 2015mm) so we will need to construct some kind of transom or other solution to cover the distance remaining in the opening above the doors.
• The brick width (from out to in) is 190mm.  
• The french doors together (closed) are around 1430mm wide.

We've decided that doors will sit at one side, with a single lite/louvres in the remaining space. Way simpler than making them centred and better screen installation options. We have access to some serious woodworking machinery - so, a great help.

So my plan is to make the outter frames with:

• 240 x 45mm hardwood for sills (allowing for slight overhang over deck)
• 140 x 35 hardwood for heads (rebated to fit with rebate in brick)
• 140 x 35 hardwood for uprights (rebated to fit with rebate in brick)
• 140 x 35 hardwood for middle door jamb

The plan attached below it a bit dodgy because it is photographed from my PC screen, but gives a sense of what I am thinking will work. Thinking 'frame within a frame' for the single lite or louvres.

The bits I'm struggling with:

• the cartridges for retractable fly screens can range from 50mm to 70mm depending on what we go with - and we have no clear decision on this so it will be retrofit. Thinking that we need to add a second upright (actual door jamb?) to the wall side that is wide enough to give us a distance of 70mm - with the smaller receiver cartrige fitting neatly on the middle door jamb at 35mm
• whether I need to use hardwood for the other framing we need (door jamb wall-side, single lite/louvre frame, transom etc). I'm thinking we will not paint, but use a dark stain for the framing to contrast the french doors, although using different timbers will likely mean different stain results.
• Do we have to make up the frames first then carry them in and fit them? Everything I read says this is the only way to ensure they are square. Worried we'll never lift it and we really want frames to be tight against the brick. This is how all of our other doors and windows have been installed but I have no idea how they acheived square doing it that way (photos included of other door). 
• Single sill piece (with frame uprights mortissed in) or use two separate bits of timber (one as door sill, one as frame for single lite/louvre.
• How to fix the frame to the brick - all the You-tubes on door frame installation that I've found are either inside doors or outside doors of timber-framed house!
• What is the best timber for external frames - does not get direct weather (dry)

So sorry for the lengthy detail and thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice from those who have done this or know more than me!  Definitely had moments thinking this one is all a bit beyond us but unfortunately can't afford to get the professionals in. My husband (a muso who doesn't share my reno passions) is getting sick of the groovey plastic temp solution, although I think it's amazing what you can do with old floor boards, plastic painting sheets and painters tape

Cheers,

MichellePlan done on softwareOne of the spaces from outsideOutside viewInside wall edge - no architravesexisting doors and windows all fitted flush with brickexisting frames flush with brickFrench doors front onFrench doors side onRebate detail in brick openings

[Dave-1]

Good Evening @Bells67 

Love those doors! Would like to do the same at my place!

Looking at that last pic, especially where there is the "rebate 8mm". There should be a lintel I think?. This is to carry the load of the bricks/wall so it dosnt compress down on the door frame itself, think of an upsidedown bananna worth of pressure on the top of the door frame.

With framing the door/window out you install the outside frame around the opening and then fit the doorway itself to that. There is usually some "space" between the frame and the door frame/enclosure This is covered up by "trim" as it covers the inside and outside bits that seperate between the wall and door frame, Spacers are use dto adjust the door jamb to be vertical.

I found this Bunnings video on how to install a door Jamb that is worth a watch. How to Install a Door Jamb - DIY At Bunnings 

Reading through your technical notes I think you are on the right path for sure.

Frame up the whole outside first. (factor in/find out about the lintel if its needed (Or maybe its there and I cant see it?)

Frame up the door width allowing for the jamb and the facing (pretty) timbers width and also top and bottom plates. Plus door sill height.

Frame up and face the louver window area

You have a bit of space to work with in reference to the height of the doors you are going to use. I have hung one door (internal) and yeah it was nerve wracking and I had a carpenter mate help me out I had most of it right but just lacked the confidance.  Hidden internal door for the library was my project.

To help myself visulise the make up of the door I actually used offcuts and layered them against where the door was going to get an understanding of the depth and how it would fit together.

(If you want to take a screen shot of your computer screen and you are using windows, type into the search bar at the bottom left "snip" it will show you an application and you can use it to snip and save whatever part of your screen you expand the area to.)

And the last but not forgotten part is I would like to welcome you to the Bunnings community page No matter what, there is a fair chance someone in here will have had the same issue or enough of the same things to help you out. Plus there are loads of projects and discussions on pretty much any topic.

Dave

[Bells67]

Hi @Dave-1 

Thanks for your post - love your hidden library door - it lines up perfectly, well done!  I always have to use sketches to 'see' how it might look when making changes, but now use Home Designer software (similar to autocad but less expensive and easy to use) - it's fantastic fun and has been a great way for me to know I'm not stuffing something up.

There is no visible lintel in place and hasn't been at any stage - when we took the bay windows out, this is how it looked. I think we have to assume that the blocks above are reinforced with rebar or something as I've read this was commonly done in block houses.  The peice of timber that sat in the rebar section was simply a piece of timber.  They say a stud finder can detect rebar and mine went off all the way along the opening but I might look into this a bit more!  May be able to install a metal lintel in that space just to be safe. Found a good Bunnings video on how to do that  

The door hanging part will be nerve wracking for me but I have had some practice with internal doors but not french doors - just a bit scary making sure they are square, secure, lockable and able to be sealed well against the frame - we have so many summer-time bugs here.

Thanks for taking a look and providing your advice and guidance, very helpful!  We hope to order the timber on Monday and will likely work on the 'frame within a frame' approach.

Cheers

Michelle

[MitchellMc]

Welcome to the Bunnings Workshop community @Bells67. It's sensational to have you join us, and many thanks for your question about installing doors.

It's great to see one of our knowledgeable members @Dave-1 is assisting.

I just thought I'd add that you can ensure your frame is square on the ground by taking measurements from opposing diagonal corners. Just make sure these lengths are exactly the same before tightening down all the corner fixings, and this will ensure your frame is perfectly square, provided all the timber has been cut to the correct size.

Keep us updated and let us know every time you get to a section where you have questions. Our members will be happy to assist.

Mitchell
 

[Bells67]

Thanks @MitchellMc 

Great tip to ensure square frame - awesome.

Will keep you posted on progress and yes, thanks, will get back on to ask questions as needed. 

Cheers

Michelle

[Dave-1]

Evening @Bells67 

Seriously cant wait to see the finished project including the screens! And thank you

Dave

[iveg]

Hi Bells67,

As to aust.building std's any door/window frame that has brick above it requires a steel lintel. There is a lot of weight on that frame.

Your doing a great job my friend.

[Bells67]

Thanks @iveg 

Building in the 80s sure was different to today!  There are no visible lintels in any part of our house above the openings. You know what they say - the more you look, the more problems you find!

Appreciate the advice

Michelle